Living without the Law

Regarding the Law of Moses... There is a well documented and explained but seldom seen or understood message in the Book of Mormon and Bible regarding the law of Moses. It relates directly to the "saved by works vs saved by grace" question in a very contraversial way for most Mormons which is why I believe they struggle to see it.

The Law of Moses didn't actually begin with Moses. God didn't decide that the system given to adam and his posterity, (including Abraham, Israel, Enoch, Noah, etc), wasn't working and to change the program 2500 years later when Moses arrived on the scene. And, He didn't change the program again 1,400-1500 years later when Jesus arrived on the scene. You have to look at the entire history as a single cohesive unchanging framework. What was required for salvation for Adam was the same for Enos, and for Nephi and Jesus, and you and me. It never changed.

This is easy to understand when you read the scriptures that tell us that we never could be saved by the Law of Moses. Not only can you not be saved by the law, but "by the law MEN ARE CUT OFF".

2 Nephi 2:5
"And men are instructed sufficiently that they know good from evil. And the law is given unto men. And by the law no flesh is justified; for by the law men are cut off. Yea, by the temporal law they were cut off; and also, by the spiritual law they perish from that which is good, and become miserable forever."

How is it that "by the law men are cut off"?

It is because without the law, there is no sin.

1 John 3:4-5
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Alma 42:17
17 Now, how could a man repent except he should sin? How could he sin if there was no law? How could there be a law save there was a punishment?

2 Nephi 2:13
13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin…

Romans 7:8-9
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Romans 5:13
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed (assigned ) when there is no law.

Alma 42:21
21 And if there was no law given, if men sinned what could justice do, or mercy either, for they would have no claim upon the creature?

Romans 3:20
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 4:15
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

1 Corinthians 15:56
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

You see, the BoM and Bible both call out the direct connection between the law and sin. Where there is no law, there is no sin.

This connection is so strong that it is impossible to be under the law and not be condemned by the law. For this reason, the law is called a curse.

Galatians 3:10,13
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
…
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Nehemiah 10:29
29 They clave to their brethren, their nobles, and entered into a curse, and into an oath, to walk in God’s law, which was given by Moses the servant of God, and to observe and do all the commandments of the Lord our Lord, and his judgments and his statutes;

Acts 15:10
(The Law is) a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Moroni 8:24
24 Behold, my son, this thing ought not to be; for repentance is unto them that are under condemnation and under the curse of a broken law.

Acts 13:39
39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Galatians 2:16
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 3:21-22
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Romans 3:20
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

James 2:10
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

When Adam was in the garden, he was not under the curse. He was like a little child and was told to learn from his own experience to distinguish good from evil. He left that counsel when Satan told him that he was naked and to hide himself from God. Adam did not learn from his own experience, he learned from Satan who told him good from evil.

Little children are also innocent in the beginning...

Why is the law given?

1 Timothy 1:9-10
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for men stealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

Galatians 3:19
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

The Children of Israel were without the law when they followed Moses out of Egypt. And, without the law they could not sin. Moses tried to give them the fulness of the Gospel which if they would have accepted, they could have entirely bypassed 1400-1500 years of living under the law. But, they were not ready to accept it. So, Moses took away the fulness of the Gospel and replaced it with the law.

Romans 7:8-9
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

This is the path that most of us take, through the law. There are some who receive what is given and are never placed under the law. They are "raised without sin to salvation".

But those who go through the law, like myself, suffer the curse of the law. We are or were the sinners, and we remain sinners until the law completes its essential role or mission in our lives. The first role or purpose of the law is to cause the wicked to live as if they were righteous. It doesn't make them righteous because it never changes their hearts. It just tries to keep them in line through the threat of punishment.

Alma 42:18-20
18 Now, there was a punishment affixed, and a just law given, which brought remorse of conscience unto man.
19 Now, if there was no law given—if a man murdered he should die—would he be afraid he would die if he should murder?
20 And also, if there was no law given against sin men would not be afraid to sin.

The law is needed by the wicked because without the law, the wicked would do evil. The righteous do not need the threat of punishment to be righteous because they ARE righteous without it. This is a major difference between the wicked and the righteous. The righteous are good for goodness sake, the wicked act like the righteous whenever the law is looking and they might get caught and only because of outside influences. Their hearts are wicked which is why they need the law to keep them in line. And because they are wicked, they are sinners even when they keep the law. The fact that they are under the law is proof enough that they are sinners because the law is not given to a righteous person. Laws are only given when people need them because they transgress as Galatians 3:19 stated above. We see this today in our own government how laws are not created until they are needed because someone is doing something they shouldn't be doing.

This brings us to the end of the law that was questioned by MasterBlaster and Megaroll in the quotes at the beggining of this post. When the law is fulfilled it is done away, or rather when the law is no longer needed, it is done away.

We can't understand why it would no longer be needed without understanding why it was given. Again, it was given because people desired evil in their hearts. It is then taken away when we experience the mighty change of heart such that we no longer desire evil, but desire to do good continually. We see an example of this after King Benjamin's address:

Mosiah 4-5
Mosiah 4:2-3,5:2
2 And they had viewed themselves in their own carnal state, even less than the dust of the earth. And they all cried aloud with one voice, saying: O have mercy, and apply the atoning blood of Christ that we may receive forgiveness of our sins, and our hearts may be purified; for we believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who created heaven and earth, and all things; who shall come down among the children of men.
3 And it came to pass that after they had spoken these words the Spirit of the Lord came upon them, and they were filled with joy, having received a remission of their sins, and having peace of conscience, because of the exceeding faith which they had in Jesus Christ who should come, according to the words which king Benjamin had spoken unto them.
...
1 And now, it came to pass that when king Benjamin had thus spoken to his people, he sent among them, desiring to know of his people if they believed the words which he had spoken unto them.
2 And they all cried with one voice, saying: Yea, we believe all the words which thou hast spoken unto us; and also, we know of their surety and truth, because of the Spirit of the Lord Omnipotent, which has wrought a mighty change in us, or in our hearts, that we have no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually.

At this magic moment is when we truly repent. All of the supposed or pretended repentance we do before this moment where we stop doing something but haven't truly changed our hearts to desire good, is all dead works and will not bring the promised spirit. Until this moment, we still need the law because our hearts are evil and our desires are toward evil and the threat of punishment from the law is what keeps us in line. We teach repentance from dead works if we are not teaching the mighty change of heart and to give up all our sins and desire good. Giving up some of our sins is not good enough. You cannot enter in at the gate through a partial repentance. It's all or nothing. And, repentance has nothing to do with obeying the law. There are millions of people who obey the law but haven't repented or experienced the mighty change of heart. This is why it is so hard for some people to find the gate.

When we truly enter in at the gate by giving up all our sins and our desire to do evil, through true and complete repentance, then and only then will God fulfill His promise to give us the Holy Ghost. Here is the promise:

2 Nephi 31
17 Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.
18 And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive.

The moment you receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost is the moment that you receive the remission of your sins... It is the moment we are truly converted. Jesus explained this while talking about the Lamanites who were baptized with fire and the Holy Ghost at the time of their conversion.

3 Nephi 9
20 And ye shall offer for a sacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And whoso cometh unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, him will I baptize with fire and with the Holy Ghost, even as the Lamanites, because of their faith in me at the time of their conversion, were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and they knew it not.

Off Topic: This story is interesting if you want to look into it more closely, it happened in Hel. 5. What is odd to most Mormons is that the Lamanites' sins were forgiven and they received the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost when they were converted even though they were not yet baptized and had not had hands laid on the heads to receive the Holy Ghost. This is one of many examples. There are actually more examples in the scriptures of people receiving the remission of sins and the Gift of the Holy Ghost before baptism and the laying on of hands.

The reception of the Holy Ghost is key, because if you have not met the requirements then God will not bestow the blessing of the remission of our sins or the gift of the Holy Ghost. Remember that you cannot be under the law without being condemned by the law as a sinner? You cannot receive the Holy Ghost without the remission of your sins and you cannot receive the remission of your sins while you are still under the law.

Jesus came to redeem or deliver us who were under the law. This is when the law is done away. It is done away because it is no longer needed. You cannot receive the Holy Ghost while being under the law.

Gal. 4:4-5
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Galatians 3:10,13
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

3 Nephi 12:46-47
46 Therefore those things which were of old time, which were under the law, in me are all fulfilled.
47 Old things are done away, and all things have become new.

Gal. 3:23-25
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster, (the law).

Romans 8:2
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Heb. 7:11-12
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

There is a big IF statement. That IF statement applies today just as much as it did under Moses. Here is the IF statement:

Gal. 5:18
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

IF you are not led of the Spirit, ye are still under the law. And if under the law, then condemned as an unforgiven sinner.

When the law is removed and done away, it is done away individually, one person at a time, based on that person's repentance. It was not done away for the entire unrepentant world who are still under the law.

Remember that without a law there can be no sin.

Alma 42:17
17 Now, how could a man repent except he should sin? How could he sin if there was no law? How could there be a law save there was a punishment?

2 Nephi 2:13
13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin…

Romans 7:8-9
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Romans 5:13
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed (assigned ) when there is no law.

Alma 42:21
21 And if there was no law given, if men sinned what could justice do, or mercy either, for they would have no claim upon the creature?

Romans 4:15
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

The wicked or the sick are called to repentance, not the righteous because they are whole. Little children are whole and so are they that are without the law.

Moroni 8:22-24, 10
8 Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.
...
22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing—
23 But it is mockery before God, denying the mercies of Christ, and the power of his Holy Spirit, and putting trust in dead works.
24 Behold, my son, this thing ought not to be; for repentance is unto them that are under condemnation and under the curse of a broken law.

The Law only applies to those who are under it, not to those who are free from the law such that the law is done away.

Romans 3:19
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law:

Romans 6:14-15
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

2 Nephi 9:25
25 Wherefore, he has given a law; and where there is no law given there is no punishment; and where there is no punishment there is no condemnation; and where there is no condemnation the mercies of the Holy One of Israel have claim upon them, because of the atonement; for they are delivered by the power of him.

This concept was so important to understand that Paul went out of his way to explain it in detail to the Romans comparing it to the law of adultery showing that when a wife was bound by the law to not commit adultery as long as her husband was alive, but when he was dead, the law was removed so that she could marry another man without committing sdultery. Then he compared this to how we are delivered by Christ from the law so that it no longer applied to us.

Romans 7:1-4
1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
…
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Examples:

Leviticus 11:2-7 - The Law was given - Under the law, the Lord instructed the people regarding what animals, fish, birds, and insects they could eat and could not eat.
Acts 10:10-15 - The Law was removed - One day while Peter was praying, waiting for others to prepare a meal, he had a vision in which the Lord told him that the law regarding what meat to eat was removed and he could eat all meats.
Romans 14:2-3,14-18 - Paul teaches that whether you eat or not eat meat, you do it to the Lord and so are blessed. "Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died." Christ died so that we could do good. If doing good means eating meat then eat meat. If doing good means not eating meat, then don't eat it. This is why Christ died, so that we could learn from our own experience to distinguish good from evil like Adam in the Garden, while remaining in the presence of God, (The Holy Ghost). Paul also says that some keep the sabbath day holy by treating it differently than other days and some keep all days holy treating the Sabbath equal with all other days, and both do it unto the Lord and both are blessed equally by the Lord for doing good. This is what it means when the law is removed.

When we are saved or redeemed, we are made whole and no longer under the curse of a broken law. The law is removed from us, so we are brought back into God's presence (the Holy Ghost) and we again exist like Adam in the garden of Eden before the fall. This is what it means to be redeemed from the fall. We are again like little children and without the law, like little children, we cannot sin.

John 3:6-10
6 Whosoever abideth in him (Christ) sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Moroni 7:6-11
6 For behold, God hath said a man being evil cannot do that which is good; for if he offereth a gift, or prayeth unto God, except he shall do it with real intent it profiteth him nothing.
7 For behold, it is not counted unto him for righteousness.
8 For behold, if a man being evil giveth a gift, he doeth it grudgingly; wherefore it is counted unto him the same as if he had retained the gift; wherefore he is counted evil before God.
9 And likewise also is it counted evil unto a man, if he shall pray and not with real intent of heart; yea, and it profiteth him nothing, for God receiveth none such.
10 Wherefore, a man being evil cannot do that which is good; neither will he give a good gift.
11 For behold, a bitter fountain cannot bring forth good water; neither can a good fountain bring forth bitter water; wherefore, a man being a servant of the devil cannot follow Christ; and if he follow Christ he cannot be a servant of the devil.

The goal is not and never has been to keep the law perfectly. If we attempt to save ourselves by obedience to the law, then we are fallen from grace and Christ has become of no effect in our lives. We do not gain the spirit by obedience to the law, but by faith in Christ.

Galatians 5
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Romans 4:4-5
4 Now to him that worketh (according to the law) is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not (according to the law), but believeth on him that JUSTIFY the UNGODLY, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Gal. 3:1-3
1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Jarom 1:4
4 And there are many among us who have many revelations, for they are not all stiffnecked. And as many as are not stiffnecked and have faith, have communion with the Holy Spirit, which maketh manifest unto the children of men, according to their faith.

Now, what if we "sin" or do evil after we have repented? What if we turn away from righteousness back to our sin?

Ether 2:15
15 And the brother of Jared repented of the evil which he had done, and did call upon the name of the Lord for his brethren who were with him. And the Lord said unto him: I will forgive thee and thy brethren of their sins; but thou shalt not sin any more, for ye shall remember that my Spirit will not always strive with man; wherefore, if ye will sin until ye are fully ripe ye shall be cut off from the presence of the Lord. And these are my thoughts upon the land which I shall give you for your inheritance; for it shall be a land choice above all other lands.

The spirit will strive with us teaching us to do good. It doesn't leave us. It remains our constant companion. But, if we refuse to listen to the spirit again and again, it will eventually give up on us and stop striving with us. IF we sin until we are FULLY ripe, then we will be cut off from the presence of the Lord. You can "sin" or do evil and remain in the Lord's presence until you are FULLY ripe. This is because the law was removed. But, the Lord also explained,

2 Nephi 31:14
14 But, behold, my beloved brethren, thus came the voice of the Son unto me, saying: After ye have repented of your sins, and witnessed unto the Father that ye are willing to keep my commandments, by the baptism of water, and have received the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, and can speak with a new tongue, yea, even with the tongue of angels, and after this should deny me, it would have been better for you that ye had not known me.

This happens after we have become so wicked that Satan has full reign over our hearts. It happens when we unrepent so must that our hearts are turned back completely to desire evil. Then we are ripe for destruction.

2 Nephi 26:11
11 For the Spirit of the Lord will not always strive with man. And when the Spirit ceaseth to strive with man then cometh speedy destruction, and this grieveth my soul.

We see this happen with the Jaradites who were all utterly destroyed...

Ether 15:19
19 But behold, the Spirit of the Lord had ceased striving with them, and Satan had full power over the hearts of the people; for they were given up unto the hardness of their hearts, and the blindness of their minds that they might be destroyed; wherefore they went again to battle.

Therefore, repent and become as a little child... without the law, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.

3 nephi 11
38 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little child, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.
39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.

3 Nephi 9
22 Therefore, whoso repenteth and cometh unto me as a little child, him will I receive, for of such is the kingdom of God. Behold, for such I have laid down my life, and have taken it up again; therefore repent, and come unto me ye ends of the earth, and be saved.

Let them eat meat?

 

This is another post from Measuring Doctrine that I wanted to make sure was preserved.

Section 89 can be difficult to understand. Between the undefined terms (what is a hot drink?) and the traditions we’ve grown up with, trying to understand what the Lord really intended can be tough. One subject that we see confusion around is eating meat.

D&C 89:10-13

And again, verily I say unto you, all wholesome herbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature, and use of man—every herb in the season thereof, and every fruit in the season thereof; all these to be used with prudence and thanksgiving. Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly; and it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.

Here the Lord is telling us herbs and fruits are ordained as food for man. Also, that the flesh of beasts and fowls are to be used, not only in times of winter, or cold, or famine, but presumably all year round. (The comma between “should not be used” and “only in times of winter” was added in 1921, so I ignore it). One definition of sparingly is moderately,  tenderly, or not lavishly. Other times sparingly can mean seldom or not frequently, but the next scripture seems to not support that definition here.

D&C 49:18-21

And whoso forbids to abstain from meats, that man should not eat the same, is not ordained of God; for, behold, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that which cometh of the earth, is ordained for the use of man for food and for raiment, and that he might have in abundance. But it is not given that one man should possess that which is above another, wherefore the world lieth in sin. And wo be unto man that sheds blood or that wastes flesh and has no need.

That’s a second witness that the beasts of the field and fowls of the air are ordained for the use of man. But the Lord gives two warnings. First, that one man should not possess more than another. We should not have people starving while others have plenty (insert law of consecration here). And secondly, wasting the flesh of animals, killing them when there is no need, is bad. But we are also to have this food in abundance. Abundance means ample sufficiency. This isn’t gluttony. It’s enough. More than the minimum, but not to excess.

God gives a third witness.

D&C 59:16-20

Verily I say, that inasmuch as ye do this, the fulness of the earth is yours, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that which climbs upon the trees and walketh upon the earth; yea, and the herb, and the good things which come of the earth, whether for food or for raiment, or for houses, or for barns, or for orchards, or for gardens, or for vineyards; yea, all things which come of the earth, in the season thereof, are made for the benefit and the use of man, both to please the eye and to gladden the heart; yea, for food and for raiment, for taste and for smell, to strengthen the body and to enliven the soul. And it pleases God that he hath given all these things unto man; for unto this end were they made to be used, with judgment, not to excess, neither by extortion.

To be used. For food. With judgment, not to excess.

Now that we’ve established this, let’s go back to Section 89 and read the next verses.

14 All grain is ordained for the use of man and of beasts, to be the staff of life, not only for man but for the beasts of the field, and the fowls of heaven, and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth;

15 And these hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger.

What exactly has God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess hunger?

Most people will assume he’s referring to eating meat again. But that contradicts all those previous scriptures that tells us meat is ordained for the use of man, to be used abundantly but not to excess.

Some interpret this to mean we’re only supposed to eat grain during times of famine and excess of hunger. But that seems to ignore the next verse.

16 All grain is good for the food of man; as also the fruit of the vine; that which yieldeth fruit, whether in the ground or above the ground

I think the answer is right there in the scriptures.

14 All grain is ordained for the use of man and of beasts, to be the staff of life, not only for man but for the beasts of the field, and the fowls of heaven, and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth; and these hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger.

This is the first time wild animals has been used in Section 89. The previous verses talk about eating beasts of the field, but do not mention wild animals.

Let’s use a bit of English grammar to decode this. These is plural. In verse 14, all grain is singular. Wild animals are plural. We also have the difference between these and those. When you have two groups, the closer group is referred to as these, and the more distant group is referred to as those. The closest group to the word these is wild animals, not grain, not beasts of the field, and not fowls of heaven.

While grammar can help us understand the meaning, we really need some scriptural witnesses to confirm that. Is there a difference between beasts of the field and wild beasts or wild animals?

1 Nephi 18:25

And it came to pass that we did find upon the land of promise, as we journeyed in the wilderness, that there were beasts in the forests of every kind, both the cow and the ox, and the ass and the horse, and the goat and the wild goat, and all manner of wild animals, which were for the use of men.

Here Nephi seems to be making a distinction between beasts (cows, oxen, horses, and goats) and wild animals. Nephi talks about hunting wild beasts to feed his family during a time of excess hunger.

1 Nephi 16

19 And it came to pass that we did return without food to our families, and being much fatigued, because of their journeying, they did suffer much for the want of food.

21 Now it came to pass that I, Nephi, having been afflicted with my brethren because of the loss of my bow, and their bows having lost their springs, it began to be exceedingly difficult, yea, insomuch that we could obtain no food.

31 And it came to pass that I did slay wild beasts, insomuch that I did obtain food for our families.

Later in the Book of Mormon we have another description that distinguishes between domesticated animals and wild beasts.

3 Nephi 4:2-3

2 But behold, there were no wild beasts nor game in those lands which had been deserted by the Nephites, and there was no game for the robbers save it were in the wilderness. And the robbers could not exist save it were in the wilderness, for the want of food; for the Nephites had left their lands desolate, and had gathered their flocks and their herds and all their substance, and they were in one body.

It seems that wild beasts and wild animals are one in the same. The emphasis is on the wild part. The Lamanites were hunting game in the wilderness. The Nephites had flocks and herds. Alma also describes wild animals as living in the wilderness.

Alma 22:31

And they came from there up into the south wilderness. Thus the land on the northward was called Desolation, and the land on the southward was called Bountiful, it being the wilderness which is filled with all manner of wild animals of every kind, a part of which had come from the land northward for food.

It seems that hunting wild animals is what the Lord is referring to in D&C 89:15 when he says they are only to be used in times of famine and excess hunger. Hunting isn’t forbidden, but it is restricted. Enos went to hunt beasts in the forest when he kneeled down in prayer. Nephi hunted food in the wilderness to provide for his family. So this isn’t a sin outright. But who are the examples of those that hunt to excess? Nimrod, the founder of Babel, was a mighty hunter. Esau was a cunning hunter. And Enos tells us of the Lamanites.

Enos 1:20

And I bear record that the people of Nephi did seek diligently to restore the Lamanites unto the true faith in God. But our labors were vain; their hatred was fixed, and they were led by their evil nature that they became wild, and ferocious, and a blood-thirsty people, full of idolatry and filthiness; feeding upon beasts of prey; dwelling in tents, and wandering about in the wilderness with a short skin girdle about their loins and their heads shaven; and their skill was in the bow, and in the cimeter, and the ax. And many of them did eat nothing save it was raw meat; and they were continually seeking to destroy us.

 

Nephi and his family ate raw meat in the wilderness and the Lord blessed them. The Lamanites at raw meat and it was a cursing. So eating raw meat in and of itself isn’t sin. During times of famine and excess hunger it’s fine. But if that becomes your staple diet, you’ve gone too far. So it seems with hunting in general. The Nephites farmed extensively, with both grains and flocks of animals, and hunted occasionally. The Lamanites didn’t farm, and either pillaged or hunted for their sustenance.

I can’t help but notice that our hunting laws restrict hunting to specific times of the year, and limit the number of animals that can be killed. I suspect that if these laws were repealed, some percentage of hunters would hunt to excess, much like what happened with the wild buffalo in the 1800s. Our hunting laws seem to be implementing the will of the Lord to some degree (albeit by coercion). An outright prohibition on hunting for food is not God’s will. Trophy hunting, where blood is spilled when there is no need, seems to be a different story.

So what does this mean for us? Beef, poultry, and other domesticated meats are fine to eat year round, in abundant moderation but not to excess. Grains, herbs, and fruits are fine to eat year round. Wild animals, however, should only be eaten in times of famine and excess hunger.

Trick Question: How long does the Millennium last?

 

THIS IS A REPOST OF MD’s WORK POSTED january 05, 2020 FROM MEASURINGDOCTRINE.COM

You would think this would be easy. The word millennium, derived from the Latin mille (one thousand) and annum (year) literally means 1,000 years. We have several scriptures that describe the period known as the Millennium as lasting one thousand years.

D&C 29:11
For I will reveal myself from heaven with power and great glory, with all the hosts thereof, and dwell in righteousness with men on earth a thousand years, and the wicked shall not stand.

D&C 88
101 And these are the rest of the dead; and they live not again until the thousand years are ended, neither again, until the end of the earth.

110 And so on, until the seventh angel shall sound his trump; and he shall stand forth upon the land and upon the sea, and swear in the name of him who sitteth upon the throne, that there shall be time no longer; and Satan shall be bound, that old serpent, who is called the devil, and shall not be loosed for the space of a thousand years.

D&C 29:22
And again, verily, verily, I say unto you that when the thousand years are ended, and men again begin to deny their God, then will I spare the earth but for a little season;

That seems pretty straight forward. One thousand years. What’s so tricky about that? Well, how will those one thousand years be measured? We already saw this verse, yet it contains an important clue.

D&C 88:110
And so on, until the seventh angel shall sound his trump; and he shall stand forth upon the land and upon the sea, and swear in the name of him who sitteth upon the throne, that there shall be time no longer; and Satan shall be bound, that old serpent, who is called the devil, and shall not be loosed for the space of a thousand years.

This is repeated a few more times in other places.

D&C 84:100
The Lord has redeemed his people; And Satan is bound and time is no longer. The Lord hath gathered all things in one. The Lord hath brought down Zion from above. The Lord hath brought up Zion from beneath.

Revelation 10
5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

But the scriptures also uses the 1,000 years reference multiple times:

Revelation 20
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

When time is no more, how do you measure 1,000 years? Why would several prophets talk about this period lasting one thousand years if there is no time?

Alma gives us an important perspective.

Alma 40
8 Now whether there is more than one time appointed for men to rise it mattereth not; for all do not die at once, and this mattereth not; all is as one day with God, and time only is measured unto men.

And we can link this to Peter’s writings.

2 Peter 3
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Time is only measured unto man. And all time is as one day with God. So when Jesus is reigning personally on the earth as our God, time ceases and all is as one day. Time not existing is a tough concept for humans to understand, so I suspect the 1,000 years number was used by God so we could understand it would last a long while, far longer than our normal experience, but that it would also eventually end. At some point Satan will be released and begin to deceive men during the little season before the end. How long will it last? God could say a really long time, but that isn’t very satisfying to most people, so one thousand years works.

Remember a previous post talking about “the eternal world” and how we think that means after the final judgment, but Alma uses it to describe where we go after death? If you are in a place where there is no time, you are in eternity. One second lasts forever, and forever lasts an instant. That is eternity. The Millennium is part of the eternal world. Christ reigns personally upon the earth, and time is only measured unto man, not God.

So what about these Telestials?

D&C 76
86 These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;

The unrepentant Telestials in this eternal world (the Millennium) do not receive the fulness of God during the Millennium. But as they repent and are raised up after “1,000 years”, they now live on an earth ruled by Christ in person.

D&C 76
111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared;
112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.

This verse can cause some problems for people. Worlds without end is not used anywhere else in scripture. World without end is used once in the Bible, in Ephesians 3:21. But it doesn’t actually say “world without end” in Greek, but aionos ton aionon, which is literally eon of eons. An eon is a period of time. This isn’t talking about worlds, it’s talking about time. Not infinite time, but rather a long time that will eventually come to an end.

This use of world when we should be using eon happens often in the King James Translation. Remember the parable of the wheat and the tares?

Matthew 13
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world [aionon – time period]; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world [aionon – time period].

Jesus wasn’t talking about this happening at the end of the world, but at the end of this time period. Here’s another example from Mark 10.

29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel’s,
30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world [aionon – time period] to come eternal life.

Go to biblehub.com and search and see just how many times the KJV translators used the word world when they should have been using age/era/eon or some other word denoting a period of time. (Here’s the link of aionos and here’s the link for aionon).

Joseph Smith did use the phrase “worlds without end” in a discourse in Nauvoo and said it meant forever. Unfortunately, this was in the King Follett Discourse in which he also said, “We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea.” It might not be wise to trust Joseph’s definition of eternity regarding the sons of perdition when it comes from the exact same talk in which he claims the eternal God isn’t eternal. Just saying.

What does God himself say eternal means?

D&C 19
4 And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless.
5 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand.
6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.
7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.
8 Wherefore, I will explain unto you this mystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles.
9 I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest.
10 For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore—
11 Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.
12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.

God is telling us the eternal punishment doesn’t last forever. He let’s men believe this because it works upon their hearts, I presume to make them fearful enough to be less likely to procrastinate their repentance. God’s punishment is eternal because that’s his name, but it doesn’t last forever.

If God says the Telestials can never come where he is, eon of the eons, it doesn’t mean forever. Just until the end of this special time period. Which time period is that? I think it’s the Millennium, this time period where time doesn’t exist. It’s eternity, because there is no time. But eventually, there will be an end of the torment and the Telestials will be released.

We have some other times where absolute pronouncements are made in scripture, only to be qualified.

Mosiah 3:19
For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever…
…unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

D&C 67:11
For no man has seen God at any time in the flesh…
…except quickened by the Spirit of God.

Moses 1:5
Wherefore, no man can behold all my works…
…except he behold all my glory; and no man can behold all my glory, and afterwards remain in the flesh on the earth.

In these cases, the Lord makes an absolute statement, then qualifies it. In D&C 76:112, he makes an absolute statement:

but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.

I think between worlds without end not meaning worlds without end but a long period of time, combined with D&C 19 where the Lord teaches that those found on the left hand of God will suffer for a long period of time, but he clarifies that he never said it wouldn’t end, gives us the qualifying clause that should at least make us open to the possibility that what the Lord means is the Telestials, while they remain in their filthy state, will never come where God and Christ dwell. But once they have paid for their sins, that prohibition may no longer exist.

But to argue that “worlds without end” means forever when the only scriptural references we have indicate that it doesn’t mean forever, and to ignore that God says this punishment will end and he intentionally uses wording to make humans think punishment will last longer than it really does, all in favor of a single reference from the King Follett Discourse, seems to be trying harder to support the tradition of our fathers than to grapple with what the scriptures actually say. There is no definitive answer on either side of this question. But I will stack the ambiguity of the scriptures against the certainty of the King Follett Discourse any day.